freckleface

It seems the process is really focused on protecting buyers from deadbeat sellers. However, what about protection for sellers against scamming buyers? I've read multiple threads regarding this issue. Many sellers are worried about buyers taking advantage and saying they never received an item, however they want to provide good customer service, so more often than not they replace the item free of charge(delivery confirmation is NOT a guarantee of delivery). There should be some type of system to track how many "non receipt" items a buyer has claimed. Just a thought.

dangerousmezzo

If Etsy closes a seller's shop by mistake, does Etsy ever make restitution to that shop for loss of livelihood?

eclipse

my suggestions for improving the current process:

1. Etsy should get out of the dispute mediation process entirely, let paypal handle it since they handle the money. Paypal's process is clearly defined, consistent and predictable, and they have the ability to see if an item has been paid for, shipped, or refunded.

But if #1 cannot be adopted, then I suggest these improvements.

2. Before closing a shop for non-delivery, check if the buyer even paid for it. If the buyer does not provide proof of payment, no action should be taken.
3. Don’t delete stores on Friday afternoons.
4. Provide an emergency phone number for urgent issues such as erroneously closed stores.
5. Get rid of the brick wall graphic, it’s unfriendly and a slap in the face to customers.
6. Have an audit process or oversight process before closing a store. Stores have been closed by mistake. These kind of mixups could be prevented by having a second person check over the case before action is taken.
7. When a shop is temporarily suspended, just hide their items from view and block them from making new listings, but allow them to log in to access records and fulfill outstanding orders.
8. When a seller has an outstanding dispute, there should be a red alert above their shop that only they see, like the alert when you log in that says your bills are overdue. That way even IF they didn’t receive the emails from Etsy, they would know there was some problem.
Paypal does this with their resolution center, you get a red warning saying there are unresolved disputes.
9. Etsy needs a formal appeals process
10. Etsy needs a formal failure analysis process, to assure that the same mistakes do not happen again.

eclipse

Question:

This article says:
"How long does Etsy wait to hear from a Seller or get a reply to our emails to Sellers?
Every case is different, but generally we keep sending emails for about 30 days. "

Etsy Customer Care posted here
http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php...
CustomerCare says:
*Please note that an account suspension only happens when we have not heard from the person in an 80 day period.

Which of these time periods is correct?

whatyoumacallits

No mention of what happens when Etsy closes a shop my mistake. I only see the buyer or seller being blamed here.

Also I am confused on how this FAQ can violate a buyers or sellers privacy??

quirke

Suggestions:

1. Don't close shops on a Friday. If they have been closed in error you could be seriously harming their livelihood.

2. When closed shops post in the forums because they can't get help any other way, don't mute them and punish them. If admin is not around to answer their pleas, what else do you expect them to do? They are only human after all, just like admins, right?

3. Please admins, do not make comments in the forum insinuating that sellers are lying when they say they have been erroneously closed. Everyone is aware that some shops have indeed been unjustly closed. Remarks from admins are often automatically construed as the whole truth by many people, and if a shop has been erroneously closed you are only further harming their reputation by making such statements.

4. When shops are closed in error, there should be apology and resitution made. It is proper customer service.

5. Etsy should state clearly that they either will or will not abide by individual shop policies. If a shop's policy says "We do not refund even in the event of lost packages", will Etsy honour that policy?

Peldyn

I am also wondering about the shop that was closed when SHE was the buyer that filed the complaint against another shop that was resolved. What safeguards are being put in place to make sure that kind of mistake does not happen again?

dmollison

Hi. I have a question about Proof of Shipping response in the article.

What does etsy require their sellers to provide as proof of shipping? Delivery Confirmation numbers? Postal receipts?

Thankfully, this has never come up for me, but I would like to be prepared.

Thanks.

msotherdenartglass

Excellent suggestions, eclipse. I think having a couple of safeguards in there for sellers would also help protect sellers from scammer-buyers and give sellers more ways and means of keeping on top of non-delivery complaint.

It's been mentioned before that etsy should have a 1-800 # for just such occasions.

soap

I have a couple of suggestions:

-if Etsy doesn't already do so, please prompt the complaining buyer for specific payment details such as transaction number for PayPal payment, check or money order number and with the date and amount of payment.

-Doesn't Etsy mean to say "buyer has placed order through Etsy" instead of "[b]uyer has placed an Etsy order"? As written, it sounds like Etsy is acting as the responsible selling agent and not just the venue.

-In case it's not in place already, please (a) have either Rob or Sarah the lawyer sign off on any action which prejudices an account's ability to sell on site and (b) tell the seller the specific action has caused his/her selling account to be suspended (indefinitely or not).

soap

Sorry, I guess that's more than a couple ;) and I forgot:

-if Etsy has discovered an error on their part in suspending a seller account and the seller in question has been discussed on the Etsy fora, please try to rehabilitate that seller's reputation with a post a public in the fora. e.g. it's disconcerting to see a competitor post less than positive statements implying guilt or a violation of the TOU about a suspended account when it turns out there was mistake.

Thanks.

electrikolor

Based on the Terms of Use, this "policy" seems to contradict the intent of thess statements, especially related to the sentences set off with double asterisks **. Other than the 4 asterisks noted, the related inforamtion below has been copied in context directly froun the current TOU:

"Etsy is a Venue

Etsy is not a retailer. Although Etsy is commonly referred to as an online marketplace, it is important to realize that Etsy is not a traditional "retailer." Instead, Etsy acts as a venue to allow an individual who complies with the DOs and DONT's of Etsy to offer, sell, and buy certain handmade goods which comply with the DOs and DON'Ts of Etsy, within a fixed price format. Etsy is not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers. **As a result, Etsy has no control over the quality, safety or legality of the items advertised, the truth or accuracy of the listings, the ability of sellers to sell items or the ability of buyers to pay for items. Etsy cannot ensure that a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction.** Consequently, Etsy does not transfer legal ownership of items from the seller to the buyer.

27things

I'd also like to suggest a "suspended" mode to replace the brick wall. It's counter productive to eliminate a seller's ability continue to process outstanding orders and. stay in touch with current customers It also makes it more difficult to check transaction histories and convos in the event that a shop was closed in error.

The "brick wall" also sends a message to the community and customers, whether it be, "I took your money and ran" or "I've been closed for alleged unscrupulous behavior." Either way, the brick wall just looks bad.

Mistakes happen. If/when they happen in the future, it would be reassuring to know that it won't have a negative impact on a shop's reputation and/or ability to fulfill outstanding obligations.

eclipse

The brick wall also shows up if you simply make a typo in a shop name. A more friendly error page that says check your spelling and links back to the "BUY" page would be more useful than the current "go back" link, which is javascript and may send someone back OFF Etsy if they had typed the shop url in directly.
Let's keep people ON Etsy and direct them to other shops.

TheVintageKitchen

I have to say I agree with the suggestions posted here. Professionalism is needed for BOTH buyers AND sellers.

TheVintageKitchen

Let's try this again. I agree with suggestions posted above. Professionalism with buyers and sellers should be top priority.

quirkybags

I would like these types of disputes to be handled by PayPal. Unfortunately, that would mean removing check and money order as payment options.

I would like to see a finalized policy prominently displayed in the Help section; ideally it would be one that does not contradict with the site TOU or DOs and DONTs.

GreenMamba

electrikolor brings up a very valid point. This whole article is in direct contradiction to Etsy's stated TOS. I agree with eclipse's first suggestion.

"1. Etsy should get out of the dispute mediation process entirely, let paypal handle it since they handle the money. Paypal's process is clearly defined, consistent and predictable, and they have the ability to see if an item has been paid for, shipped, or refunded."

Also, this statement from the article

"What happens to the Buyer when a case is closed?

The Buyer may be able to get a refund through a PayPal claim. Etsy will close the Seller's account, and offer some information and resources to where they can get help next. Local authorities can help, as well as FBI cybercrime, where a victim of a money loss can file a report. The Buyer may also file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Etsy is not affiliated or working with these public organizations."

implies that a single incident that is not resolved to a buyer's satisfaction can and will result in the loss of a seller's shop. It does not seem to make any allowances for individual shop policy, or seller reputation. That is very alarming.

I also say let PayPal be the mediator in all disputes that went through its payment processing system, and let feedback reflect the issues and facts in all other disputes. Otherwise, there really is no need for the feedback system at all, as stellar feedback will not protect a seller's reputation, nor save their shop.

And I agree, some sort of acknowledgement, apology and restitution for the erroneously closed shops is warranted.

I am seriously relieved that Etsy is starting to take a hard look at these issues, and is actively seeking member input.

katiedoodah

As a buyer I had a problem with non delivery and non response from a seller that also did the same thing to many other buyers. It was my first problem but the process wasn't very smooth.

In my original filing, I noted that I had tried to communicate unsuccessfully with the seller but had no response to emails or convos. After waiting weeks, literally weeks I received an email back from Etsy that I should try to contact the seller. It made no sense to me at all. What was the point of filing the report and in the report I included that I had tried to contact the seller to no avail.

As a buyer only, I would rather go through Paypal, which I have now done in instances of non delivery instead of using the Etsy process, in regards to disputes. The chances of getting money back are slim but at the same time the dispute process is clearly laid out and everything is saved. I prefer a professional dispute resolution process versus trying to wait and hunt down a bunch of emails. So far I have had a great experience with Paypals process and I believe that it also protects sellers for scam artist buyers.

I also don't understand what the "proof of shipping" means. A receipt? If I as a buyer do not pay for insurance nor delivery confirmation does that mean the seller still does. As I read it if they don't Etsy can shut down their business. That worries me as this will force sellers to raise prices to make up for this cost that not all buyers are necessarily asking for.

I also don't like the brick wall. Whatever the reason for the brick wall it is seriously scary for buyers. You are given the impression that the seller just up and ran with your money. Maybe a different set up is in order.

Sorry for the million questions, I'm just confused. Thanks for asking for feedback.

FranksAndBeans

Perhaps when the buyer files a complaint they should have to provide information about how they paid for their order: Paypal, Money Order, Check, Other. When they choose Paypal as their method of payment they are directed to follow the necessary steps to file a complaint with Paypal. When the payment is not with Paypal (check, MO)then Etsy could involve themselves in the process as necessary.

BrickMillStudio

from both a buyer and seller point of view, i'd also like to suggest taking a look at the seller's profile: is it specifically stated that items are made to order and are not shipped for up to 2 weeks? is the seller in australia, and the buyer in the US?

asking these types of questions might help figure out if a package is really late, or if the time frame is still within the parameters of the item description/ profile.

FranksAndBeans

Oh - and instead of a "profile" section maybe it should be changed to (or a new one added) "FAQ" or "Shop Policy". Not all buyers would think to check the Profile for shop policy. This way they could see about insuring their purchases or what to do if they have not received their package after a certain period of time.

paulaberryjewelry

I had a whole long list of things, but quirke said everything that needed to be said.

And Etsy needs to make public apologies in the Storke and in open threads in the forums to the shops that were closed in error.

simonewalsh

There's so much to say here, but I'll just stick to the proof of posting angle.

The only methods which provide proof of posting from Australia would up my shipping costs around $50 - around the average price of items in my shop. Nobody is going to pay for that.

Insurance isn't really proof of posting either, but even that is extremely expensive from here - it would triple or quadruple my shipping costs.

I can ask buyers to pay a bit extra for delivery confirmation, but it's so incredibly unreliable here that I think I would faint if I ever got one back again - and it's not proof of postage.

It's unreasonable of Etsy to base expectations on what happens in the US postal system. The world is a very diverse place.

Having said that, I do always resolve the very rare non-delivery cases which happen in my business. But if the buyer went to Etsy about it instead of to me, I continue to be extremely concerned about the outcome. Especially as I too have had emails from Etsy fail to arrive and I know absolutely for sure that spam filters are not to blame in my case.

zencreations04

I see people breaking the rules on this site all the time, and no matter how much it is reported, very little is done. But make one mistake with your shipping and you're done?
I very much agree that buyers should be protected. I would hate to spend money on something, never get it and not get my money back. But sellers need a little protection too.

AltheaRosea

"If Etsy has discovered an error on their part in suspending a seller account and the seller in question has been discussed on the Etsy fora, please try to rehabilitate that seller's reputation with a post a public in the fora. e.g. it's disconcerting to see a competitor post less than positive statements implying guilt or a violation of the TOU about a suspended account when it turns out there was mistake."

This is imperative.

brianslittlegirl

ok, in general all my buying and selling experiences on etsy have been just fine and dandy, but I did just want to put my two cents in, since I was a "victim" of non-delivery, non-communication where the seller did in fact just fall off the face of the earth apparently and no longer has an etsy shop.

Here's the thing with paypal, you have 45 days to file after you buy something. I'm pretty laid back, and several of my orders have taken much longer than that, a couple of my items have been lost in the mail and been resent or refunded, and I'm generally happy to not be too rough on sellers. I love etsy and think that most of y'all are fantastic. I just wish (pure fantasy though, I'm sure, as this really would not be likely) that there was some way that I could get refunded if I paid, and have proof of this, and have not received my purchased item or been able to get any communication/reply from the seller. I won't leave etsy based on my one bad experience, but what if I was someone new to etsy? It left quite a bad taste in my mouth, and that was just one out of all of my purchases.

FuzzyIzmit

I really want to know what proof of shipment its!!!

theERN

This is exactly what I was thinking:

quirke says: "...Etsy should state clearly that they either will or will not abide by individual shop policies. If a shop's policy says "We do not refund even in the event of lost packages", will Etsy honour that policy?"

I also feel very strongly that Etsy needs to decide whether it is or is not involved in individual transactions -- as quoted previously "Etsy is not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers. ...Etsy cannot ensure that a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction."

There is no mention of what happens in cases of "he said, she said." A seller is required to prove shipping, but a buyer is not required to prove non-receipt. This is particularly disturbing.

eclipse

How would you prove non-receipt?
take a picture of your empty mailbox?
You can't really prove a negative.
Buyers SHOULD have to provide proof of payment before any further action is taken by Etsy. If they never paid then obviously the seller will not ship the item. (and should not be expected to)

bombalurina

I absolutely agree that proof of payment is necessary before anything at all happens. If there is no payment there is no grounds for dispute, no transaction has been entered into.

I also think that Simone is bringing up a serious issue worth consideration - unless Etsy is willing to research the postal costs and feasability in all the locations from which people sell - again, why not leave the dispute aspect to the payment processor who handles the money and is set up for such?

Additionally, the transparency and history provided by feedback is a kind of due diligence - I don't see why the venue *should* be liable if someone chooses to do business with someone multiple people have classed as unreliable in feedback. The higher level of involvement brings a higher level of liability and frustration, which may not have enough benefit ratio attached.

whimsicalpam

I think that your policies on this issue are very fair and realistic. I'm not sure that much more can be done, from the admin angle. Essentially, this is about communication or lack there of. Over the past 10 years or so I have seen a gradual decline in customer service ( communication being an essential part of that). Possibly an Etsy How-to on communication and customer service would be helpful.
I think that this would be beneficial to number of issues.

zencreations04

I agree with whimsicalpam. A lot of these problems can be resolved with communication between a buyer and seller. Buyers should be encouraged to contact a seller before they do anything else and give sellers a opportinuity to handle it. I also agree that we as sellers need to know where Etsy stands with individual shop policies.

beadifuldesigns

When sellers with thousands of positive feedback are shut down because of one transaction, there is a problem with the process. The process as you've outlined in the article allows for just such a scenario.

This policy does not take into account a seller's past or current performance. It is tunnel visioned on one transaction. Even PayPal does not close an account because of one complaint that is decided against the seller. But in essence, that is what Etsy is doing. It's imperative that a sellers past and current performance come into play somewhere in the decision to close a shop.

I would like Etsy to take note that a supposed 'dead beat' seller is currently still listing items and fulfilling orders before assuming that they are simply ignoring all emails from Etsy.

beadifuldesigns

Okay, putting on my buyer hat now... your statement that Etsy honors shop policies is nice and all... but doesn't protect the buyer from a seller editing their shop policies once a transaction has gone awry. I've had only wonderful experiences as a buyer on Etsy. But I do not purchase from sellers that have a "we are not responsible for lost or damaged packages" policy. What's to stop a seller from adding a statement like that once they are in a dispute with a customer?

beadifuldesigns

emilybidwell says:
The flip side of your point is interesting to me. How about no Non-Delivery Notifications at all? How about buyers use feedback, and feedback alone? If a seller's feedback dips below a certain percentage, they may be suspended from selling.
*************************************
This sounds fair to me as a buyer and as a seller. And it's completely in line with the TOU that both buyers and sellers agree to. A buyer always has recourse to PayPal and/or law enforcement.

Although I think you should do a calculation of recent feedback when determining if suspension is warranted. A long time successful seller could certainly have a situation happen where they really shouldn't be actively selling anymore. This would allow Etsy to react to more urgent scenarios in order to protect buyers.

stonesoupsupplies

My business experience has taught me that the most effective policies are those that are clear, consistent and SIMPLE. IMO, it would be best for both Etsy and its members to stay out of the non-delivery issue entirely in PayPal transactions. Etsy can refer a buyer to PayPal, because that's the entity that controls the money and that has clear policies. Etsy's TOU make it clear that Etsy is a venue, not a participant in the transaction - seems safest for all concerned to step aside.

If the seller accepts some other form of payment that's involved, the policy ought to simply set forth definite time limits and a list of acceptable "evidence" on both sides. The buyer needs a copy of his/her check or money order; the seller needs a postal receipt, delivery confirmation receipt IF DC was available and cost-effective, perhaps a copy of an email sent to the buyer on the date the item was shipped (or whatever else Etsy wants to define as proof). Buyer has up to 60 days? 90 days? whatever to contact seller about alleged non-delivery; Etsy will moderate only to the extent that they make an effort to contact the seller and get the parties together. If Etsy gets no response, then yes, refer the buyer to outside agencies that cover this.

I also think that Etsy can reserve the right to close shops for "violations" of a different sort (repeatedly listing items that aren't allowed, sending profane, abusive or harrassing convos to other members, whatever) and can still define a shop closing penalty for non-delivery based on numbers alone. If a seller has, say, 10 negative feedback for non-delivery in a 30 day period, or if the seller has a percentage of negative feedback over 5% in a 30-day period(I'm just pulling numbers out of the air to illustrate), the shop gets suspended, then closed. I also think that Etsy really ought to consider CONFIRMING that a seller has received a shop closure notice before taking that extreme step. If there's no response to a warning email within 7 days, send a convo. No response to that in 7 days, either make a phone call or send registered/certified mail. Perhaps listing privileges can be suspended in the mean time, before the brick wall goes up.

All this could be modeled after the billing policy, which seems to me to be clear, reasonable and neutral. The billing policy doesn't seem to allow a lot of room for human error; the different conflicting stories we're hearing about shop closures suggest that someone somewhere made a couple of big mistakes, whatever happened.

That brick wall has so many negative repercussions that I would expect to see it only in the most extreme and egregious cases. And I know that establishing some well-defined circumstances under which it's used in non-delivery cases (again, recognizin that there are other issues that are necessarily more subjective) would go a long way towards calming the "hysteria" over this issue.

stonesoupsupplies

Oh, and one more thing (as if my comment wasn't long enough ;) );

It feels critical to me that someone is available 24/7 to answer questions about and deal with suspensions, mutings, closures, etc. Regular U.S. business hours don't cover international schedules, and if someone in Australia logs in to find her shop closed at 2 am US time, she ought to be able to get some help with it. PITA, but the reality of an international online ecommerce site.

starrydesigns

Here's a proof of shipping tip:

On international shipping, keep your customs form. It's free and it's proof of shipping.

=====

The customs form (CN22) here in Singapore is very much different from the one in the US.

In the US, we fill out and green part and then the white part which includes addresses of sender and receiver.

In Singapore, we only have the green part, where we fill out the contents and value. So there is customs form that we can keep.

Even if US sellers ship international, there is no way they can keep any customs form. The white portion of the CN22 goes to USPS. The only time they get to keep a copy of the customs form is when they mail something via express, where the large white customs form is needed.

starrydesigns

Bad typo.

"So there is NO customs form that we can keep."

sudlow

as proof of shipping, it may be helpful to put in a space where sellers can put in the customs code # (like when we click 'shipped'), that way it can be recorded for both the seller & buyer. I've begun to put it in my feedback at the bottom (a general, "thanks for your order...blahblah.... customs #xxx33xxxx")

bcyrjewelry

The article is mainly about protecting the buyer and not so much to protect the seller. Though I have not had any major issues with shipping - it is just as possible for a buyer to say they never received it when they did, as it is for a seller to say they shipped it when they didn't. As sellers, I know many of us go above and beyond and take a loss when trying to please our customers. The only two problems, I resent a package both times totally a loss of over $100 - I decided to believe my customer over believing that the post office said they delivered my package. How can a buyer prove that they really didn't receive a package?? I have no idea, just putting this out there for thought.

gemmafactrix

good points, beth. I've also had customers who refuse to accept my delivery confirmation number as a proof of shipment. While I understand their side, there's not much more I can do than that, unless I ship everything with insurance and such - and since I ship through paypal, I don't have a PO receipt as 'backup' in the case that a buyer refused to believe I've shipped their package. These cases should be handled extremely, extremely carefully.

Dreamwoven

i feel this article would have been quite a bit more beneficial if etsy had taken a non-participating stance and not singled out buyer or seller.

i have yet to run into a non-sending "DEADBEAT" seller... tho i have run into several Non-paying "DEADBEAT" buyers.

if etsy wishes to take the stance as a mediator, then they need to back off on a policy singling out sellers as the bad guy. if they feel they must have a policy, then they need to have a policy regarding buyers as well and it should have been presented at the same time.

gemmafactrix

The flip side of your point is interesting to me. How about no Non-Delivery Notifications at all? How about buyers use feedback, and feedback alone? If a seller's feedback dips below a certain percentage, they may be suspended from selling.

----

No way - not unless there's a complete overhaul to the feedback system. I have had so many customers - despite my clearly stating my shipping terms - get angry at the 14 day ETA. They simply didn't read it. Thus, I wait for their negative feedback. The feedback system here, with no means of rebuttal, is incredibly flawed. I've had several negatives, most of which are because the person didn't read my terms, which have always been clearly stated in my profile (and I usually have a blurb in my shop announcement, as well as many of my item descriptions, stating that customers can find the pertinent info there). In addition, some buyers just aren't that familiar with the way the PO works, or how delivery confirmation numbers are scanned, etc. I've had someone refuse to believe that I shipped the item because I didn't check the 'shipped' box on her transaction page, despite my explanations that it's a manual button that I forgot to check. I think that if feedback is to be used 'in place of' the ND reports, it will have to be changed fundamentally.

KreatedbyKarina

Why does a Buyer file a Non-delivery complaint?
- Buyer has placed an Etsy order and paid for it
BUT
- Buyer has not received goods at promised delivery date
_______________________________

This needs to be reworded. Sellers cannot control the post office nor guarantee a specific "promised date" of delivery.

randomsupplies

As Karina said, even the post office doesn't guarantee delivery, especially for international orders!

The important issue is that mistakes have been made and they need to be corrected - publicly. Seemingly random closures based on faulty information on Etsy's end requires intense scrutiny of the current policies or else risk alienating their clients - the sellers. Just regurgitating and saying that it is how it is doesn't fly when a contractual obligation is being neglected. Businesses have to constantly reevaluate their practices for both their own and their clients benefit.

dangerousmezzo

Here's a proof of shipping tip:

On international shipping, keep your customs form. It's free and it's proof of shipping.

=====

This is advice for people in the US, right? It's not terribly useful for people elsewhere ... I'm still trying to figure out exactly what information Etsy considers constitutes "proof of shipping" -- several of the more recent answers (direct from Admin) have been "a photograph of the package" (!) and "only delivery confirmation counts". There's a lot of leeway there :)

The information that Etsy respects shop policies is good to know -- this is the first time I've seen anyone from Admin state that, although I and others have asked numerous times whether our store policies mean anything to Etsy. I hope this information will be included in a reworking of the FAQs.

quirke

>>>>emilybidwell says:
Here's a proof of shipping tip:
On international shipping, keep your customs form. It's free and it's proof of shipping.
------------------------

Just FYI, in Canada international light packets there is no copy of the customs form. It's just a green sticker that goes on the envelope. And the receipt has nothing more than the weight and price on it. The point is, there are so many variables among different countries' postal systems that blanket recommendations like "keep the receipt" or "keep the customs form" really aren't useful. And telling people outside the U.S. to purchase delivery confirmation when to do so may double or triple their shipping costs is simply unrealistic. Please remember to think about the global community when making suggestions about shipping.

>>>>Let's keep the focus on the Buyers who are often the victims of negligent sellers, and need help.
------------------------

Pretty much all sellers are also buyers, aren't they? Sellers don't want to be victims of other sellers just as much as buyers-only don't want to be. But I think it says a lot that the people who both buy and sell are more concerned about being protected as shop owners then they are about the possibility of non-delivery when they purchase something.

Peldyn

I just want to add about that shipped box on the transaction form. I can't tell you how many times I have checked that box to have had it show up days later unchecked. I don't know if it is a glitch with my browser or what, but for me it just does not want to stay checked! I prefer to let my customers know via e-mail when I have shipped their items.

bombalurina

Yes, I've had that issue with the shipped checkbox, and the paid checkbox on international transactions.

bombalurina

"Why does a Buyer file a Non-delivery complaint?
- Buyer has placed an Etsy order and paid for it
BUT
- Buyer has not received goods at promised delivery date
_______________________________

This needs to be reworded. Sellers cannot control the post office nor guarantee a specific "promised date" of delivery."

exactly. If I've sent something in my stated timeframe, and I can prove I sent it that is due diligence.

There is nothing I can or should be forced to do about customs delays (I've had something I bought from a non-etsy store in the UK sit in customs for a MONTH according to postmark, it happens, it certainly wasn't a poor reflection on the store I ordered from.)

As it is I kiss every package I send to Europe twice for good luck, because almost all issues I've had with customer satisfaction stem from US to Europe shipping issues not in my control.

nectarjewelry

Why would Etsy ban a Seller in a Non-Delivery case?
If after the process described above,
- Seller has not delivered goods as promised
______________________________
Sellers don't deliver goods. The PO does. Sellers can't control the PO after the package has been mailed.

i wonder how many sellers will be raising their shipping rates to make insurance and/or signature confirmation their standard shipping.

RaeGun

I have to agree with this eclipse's first post says it all. I know etsy wants to protect it's buyers but the sellers really need to be respected and protected as well. Shutting a shop without the right info can do real harm.

I've been horrified at the number of reports of no-warning shop closure reports in the forums. Obviously we can't be certain they are being honest but I sure hope that sellers are contacted and asked for confirmation of info before shops are closed.

This to me is most important in the process: Before closing a shop for non-delivery, check if the buyer even paid for it. If the buyer does not provide proof of payment, no action should be taken.

I really agree that paypal deals with the money and can check shipping in many cases, If Etsy is going to regulate they need to be very careful to get all the information BEFORE doing anything (obviously if there are many negative ratings there would be other reason for suspending the shop quicker but hopefully you get my point)

teepetals

If you receive a non-delivery complaint will the receipt of you shipping it out be enough proof (especially on international shipping)

Also what if a seller receives a non-delivery complaint, has shipped out the item (it's on its way) but convos or emails buyer to see if item has been received but no response, what do you do next?

DreamWeaver68

I'm a long time fan of Etsy and have bought on many an occasion with no problems. However I have had my first bad experience with not receiving goods and the seller is no longer listed on Etsy. I tracked them down via google and sent them a comment via their blog to ask about the items I had bought. The seller did respond and said she didn't know why her Etsy store was no longer listed and that she had been having issues (personal ones I assume). Having read her blog she did seem to be having shipping problems with USPS but it seems unusual that one buyer could be plagued with shipping problems. The buyer couldn't remember my order and asked me to send her details to refresh her memory. I have not heard from her since, so I have decided to request a refund through PayPal. Anyway my point is that I understand that things can and do go wrong for no reason, and if a seller is transparent with what is going on I would have been prepared to accept a half refund or some other gesture and not report a non-delivery etc. Every case is different but I think it is important to communicate with the buyer - even a simple note to mention when the item was shipped. No communication results in a paranoid buyer. As far as I'm concerned the venting about shipping delays by this particular seller on a personal blog is a smokescreen for not shipping anything at all. Enough negativity - I will get back on that saddle and buy again on Etsy!

firephoenixjewellery

As a seller starting out, I am a little bi frightened by this article! What happens if I send an item and it simply gets lost in the post? What's the process? If I give the refund to the buyer, then I lose both the item and my money. Or can it be resolved by Paypal, who pay out? Also, I agree with other comments on here, that this article doesn't state how to protect sellers from scam-buyers. It would be nice to think that everyone on here is trustworthy but we must be realistic.

americanmadecenter

So does that mean I will be suspended? I just received a Non-delivery complaint, I sent a conversation to the buyer as well as an email to etsy after they sent me the complaint. It is listed in my shop that I do not refund for items that were not insured, they have the option to insure or not, not only that the item in question was delivered as I had delivery confirmation on it and it clearly by the confirmation it was delivered, and it wasn't even to a regular address but to a P.O Box. So if an error was made it was made in her post office. Not only that but in her last convesation to me she said "no this is not the one I got that its the prarie dress" "in which I have not had anything similar to a prarie dress listed at all", she bought a Italian Scarf from me" it was right after she had filed the complaint unless she was
meaning to tell etsy they filed a complaint on the wrong person,I am not sure as I have not heard back since I sent word to either one of them yet. So will they suspend me? lol, this is to funny.

Also do they keep track of the buyers who regularly file non delivery complaints? To keep a check on them to see who uses it way to much.

firephonenixjewellery-- I always use confirmation, and it maybe harsh not to refund after a non delivery complaint, but as long as you use confirmation and check it to have been delivered, I would not refund, If you print out your postage at home, confirmation is free, But even if you take it to the post office and get charged for it, it is worth it to me knowing it has been delivered. I do have in my shop that confirmation is added, figure your postage then add the confirmation to it and then charge that for your shipping.

I know that means a little added price to your customers, to some that is worth it as they can then track it online as well. And it is shows in my paypal the confirmation that it was delivered as well.

I know there are some who are not trustworthy, and yes we should be realistic, if someone can prove that confirmation shows it delivered there should be not problem, an the ones who are abusing non delivery claims should be reconized.